Subject: Sniff, last one for a while: Bodyopus week 20 (finally) Copyright Lyle McDonald 1996 Date: 1996/09/16
Well, an interesting question came up (actually, this has come up before but I don't think I've every discussed it in the weekly updates and I thought it would make a good final FAQ question (even if I don't have the answer to it). Any input here is much appreciated. DL asks: >Here's one for you. Dan D. indicated that some of the Bodyopus crazies were >carbing up just before a workout, doing the workout, then using insulin to >drive themselves back into ketosis. Doing this affords the lifter to get >the animal workout while also getting some of the benefits of the >ketogenesis. Has anyone experimented with carb values that would allow one >to get a strong workout but be back down to the low BGLs by the end of the >workout so that maybe one could perform some cardio to burn fat via >ketogenesis. Because I can't see your head shake or nod, I'm not sure you >understand what I mean but I believe you do. I wonder if there would be any >benefit of bouncing out of ketosis for the workout, but high tail it back >(naturally) after the workout? But before that is evaluated, is it possible >in the first place? Where to start? I know exactly what you're asking here: is it possible to do some carbs (amounts of types currently unspecified) to get: 1. the benefits of normal blood sugar and normal blood pH during the workout 2. but allow blood sugar to come back down by the end of the workout for fat burning cardio and re-entry into ketosis? #1 should answer your question of the benefit. I think having normal blood sugar will allow for a better workout. According to MF over in England, his friends are the some of the psychos doing the carbs and then insulin thing, weight training while in ketosis will lower muscle recruitment from lowered blood pH. I also think that the increased blood pH will not allow as much buffering of lactic acid which might limit strength since fatigue will kick in sooner. So, kicking out of ketosis for the workout would likely make it more productive in terms of the reps you could get with a given weight, especially if you're working in a highish rep range (more than 30 seconds per set). Now, is it possible? I think so. With really anal timing and record keeping, I think you could determine just how many carbs you could take in to: 1. exit ketosis for the workout 2. have plenty of blood glucose for the workout 3. use up all the blood glucose by the end of the workout 4. be back in major fat burning mode for post workout cardio. The question is how many carbs and what types. Recall that Duchaine suggests 50 grams of carbs (he suggests fruit in this case although I'm not exactly sure why, probably has to do with glycemic index and rate of entry into the bloodstream) 1-2 hours prior to the Friday depletion workout so that ketosis is abolished for the workout. So, I think 50 grams is a good place to start. In fact, I think you could probably determine the amount with the following trial and error type of program 1. take in 50 grams of carbs (I'd think glucose polymers of some sort might be ideal but they'd hit the bloodstream pretty darn fast and you'd have to play around with how long before the workout to take them.) Actually, what might work better would be to take in 50 grams of your chosen carb source, and do a ketone and/or blood sugar check every 15-30 minutes and see when you get out of ketosis. Use that time (say 45 minutes) as an indicator of how long prior to weights you should take in your carbs). 2. go lift weights, check for ketones immediately after weight training (exercise is ketogenic in nature). If you are showing ketones, you know you are back into ketogenesis and will be burning them during post workout cardio. You could then gradually increase the amount of carbs you took in until you found the amount that kept you out of ketosis after the workout (which would have to stay the same of course as far as sets and reps). That would be the critical amount to take in to satisfy our requirements for a kick-butt workout but still allow one to get back into ketosis quickly without using exogenous insulin. In other mail, DL commented that urine ketone measurement is only a very indirect and delayed indicator of ketogenesis in the blood which is true. But, without blood ketone (or breath ketone) measurement devices, it's really all we've got. I suppose you could use a glucometer to chart blood glucose (understanding that ketogenesis doesn't really occur until blood glucose gets around/below about 60 mg/dl and many glucometers aren't accurate enough to give more than rough measures) to see how long it takes for blood glucose to come up out of ketone land. That would give you a rough measure of how long before lifting to take in your carbs. Then, by checking blood glucose after workout, you could see if you had burned all those carbs up so that ketosis could rapidly be re-established. Lyle McDonald, CSCS ------------------ The body composition log: Taken with Slimguide calipers first thing Monday morning upon awakening. Day Date Wt Pec Abs SI Thigh Sum3 BF% FM FFM -------------------------------------------------------------- Mon 7/8 152 3 20 10 6 29 8.5 12.75 139.25 Mon 7/15 157 3 20 11.5 6 29 8.5 13.35 143.65 Mon 7/22 159 3 21 13 6 30 8.5 13.5 145.5 Mon 7/29 162 3 24 15 6 33 9.4 15.2 146.8 Mon 8/5 164 3.5 24 16.5 6 33.5 9.4 15.4 148.6 Mon 8/12 164 3 25 17 8 36 10.4 17 147.0 Mon 8/19 163 3 25 15.5 6 34 9.4 15.3 147.7 Mon 8/26 155 3 24 13.5 6 33 9.4 14.6 140.4 Mon 9/2 158 3 22 12.5 6 31 8.5 13.4 144.6 Mon 9/9 154 3 21 12 5 29 8.5 13 141 Notes: Well, this looks like last week's fears may have been unfounded. FFM today (which should be compared to FFM on 8/26 as that followed only one carb leam) is about the same. I think more than anything, my numbers show that body composition measures are only so useful for this diet. With the massive changes in water weight (a component of FFM), it's hard to say exactly what's going on. Ultimately, I'm more concerned with FM (which didn't go down as much as I would have liked but...) and strength in the gym (which I am using as at least a general indicator of muscle loss or maintenance. That is, if strength levels stay the same as when I wasn't dieting, I take this as a general indicator that I'm not losing and (much?) muscle. No, not an exact method but, without a DXA machine to do body-comp, it's the best I can do.) Key: BF% = body fat percentage FM = fat mass in lbs FFM = fat free mass (total weight - FM) My week at a glance: ------------------- Sunday: Skated for about 1.5 hours today (think I forgot to mention it in last week's update). Just went around the city with no particular goal in mind. Ironically enough, I ended up at a Target across town from where I live. Seemed as good a place as any to turn around (a good, ahem, target so to speak). Monday: Legs, chest and back again today. As with last week, squats continue to backslide but, considering 1.5 hours of skating yesterday, it's still hard to compare directly. If I have suffered any muscle loss, it's pretty much constrained to the lower body since all upper body lifts stayed the same today. Started this workout with 10' of easy cardio on the Lifecycle and ended it with 12' of medium-hard cardio on the Stepmill. Opted not to do any more cardio tonight because my legs are tired and I'm too overtrained as it is. This week is going to be a nightmare as I have to try to set up all my clients with substitute trainers before I can go out of town as well as get ready for my trip so don't be so surprised (hell, most of you will probably be overjoyed) if I'm not as longwinded as usual. Tuesday: Thermogenics then 45' of brisk walking on the treadmill in the morning. Since this is the last week of dieting (for now, he said with an evil grin), I decided to really go overboard and go back in tonight for another easy 45' on the bike. Gave me some time to catch up on my reading anyhow. I am so frigging sore today from yesterday's lift it's sick. I mean, I like being sore like the next guy but I am gimping around my hamstrings are so torched. Guess I shouldn't have done those 3X6" isometric holds after I hit failure, huh? Wednesday: Typical Wednesday. Did the thermogenic thing and then went walking for about 1 hour. Due to the mechanics of my vaction (leaving Tuesday morning), I've decided to delay carbing an extra day since I"ll be returning to a normal mixed diet for the 2 weeks of my vacation. So, I'm moving my normal Wednesday workout (deads, delts, arms, abs, grip) to tomorrow. My whole body is too sore to have had a good workout today anyhow. Evening: Since this is the last week of dieting (again, for now), I went and did another 45' of easy cardio on the bike tonight. Thursday: Weights. Deads, delts, arms, abs. Since I know I'm overtrained and I'm on far too few calories, I cut this workout even further down to one work set (to failure of course) per exercise. Interestingly, strength came up or at least stayed the same in everything (did the same lifts relative to last week's same workout) so I don't get the impression that I'm losing any muscle (any more muscle?) from all this cardio. Only the body composition measures will tell, and even then only roughly. I started the workout with 10' easy on the bike and finished with 20' of walking on the treadmill. Workout: Day Date Wt Pec Abs SI Thigh Sum3 BF% FM FFM -------------------------------------------------------------- Fri 8/16 155 3 25 15 6 37 10.4 16 139 Fri 8/23 154 3 23 15 6 32 9.4 14.5 139.5 Fri 8/30 153 3 22 12.5 6 31 8.5 13 140 Fri 9/6 151 3 22 12.5 5.5 30.5 8.5 12.8 138.2 Mon 9/9 154 3 21 12 5 29 8.5 13 141 Fri 9/13 150 3 20 11 5.5 28.5 8.0 12 138 Notes: Ok, well, I made a bit more progress this week but fat losses have definitely tapered off (from 1.5 lbs per week to 1). Now, Dan has written previously that Week 4 of a fat loss diet is about the time that thyroid really downregulates and results stop occuring as quickly and I started this diet oh so long ago with a less than optimal thyroid level (going by body temperature). So, since it corresponds well with my vacation, I'll be taking the next two weeks and eating normally. Yes, that (gasp) means normal (more or less) carbohydrate intake. I'll be sure to take body temp measurements to see how many days it takes for thyroid levels to come back up and report back. When I get back in town, depending on my mental state, I may try to diet down the last little bit to 6-7% bodyfat hoping that an improved thyroid will allow me to make the final plunge. Of course, since I am going to LA, I could probably snag some cytomel from somebody. Nah, too easy. Gotta do this clean. Or, if I am in a different mood, I may come back after my break and jump back into another muscle gaining phase. Winter is coming up so there's no real good reason to be that cut. Other than for my own piece of mind. Oh, if anyone wonders why I put bodyfat at 8% when it's usually not a round number, here's why. The lookup charts I have give bodyfat % based on a range of skinfolds. Today I moved from the 29-31 range (which give 8.5% bodyfat) to right above the 26-28 range (which is 7.6%) I'm simply assuming that being right in the middle is roughly halfway between the two BF percentages which is where 8% came from. Friday: Well, after much toing and froing mentally, I decided to go ahead and start carbing. I had considered staying in ketosis an extra day or two to lose some more fat but, seeing as progress has stalled, I didn't see the real point in making myself that miserable for another .3 lbs of fat or something. Now, the plan was to do the depletion workout and all that crap but: a. I am exceedingly sore from my weight workout yesterday (which should have been done on Tuesday to set up for carbing this weekend) b. I really wasn't up for it. So, even though I know better, I just started carbing this afternoon. Went with my typical sugar foods to start but rapidly shifted to more 'real' foods in the evening. Going to carb tomorrow and part of Sunday, then revert back to protein and fat and take a diuretic to try to get some photos taken on Monday morning. Just in case I decide not to continue the diet when I get back, I want some final pictures of my condition (best it's ever been even if it's still not quite where I want it). Most muscle and the least fat I've ever had. Saturday: Carbs, carbs, carbs, carbs. But, in controlled amounts. Not following the recomposition numbers (hell, I haven't done that since week 1 because I'm too damn lazy) but I can't go overboard since I'm not going back to low carb on Monday. Making sure to take 750 mg of citrimax to prevent spillover and help blunt hunger today and plan to continue carbing until noon tomorrow. Then back to mostly fats and protein and going to use a herbal diuretic to get some pics taken on Monday. And, then I'm on vacation. Yeeha. Oh, one last thing to note: I'm also tapering off the ECA stack this weekend. From the standpoing of carbing, it would probably haven been better to discontinue it totally but, as I found out last time the hard way, going from 150 mg of ephedrine per day to zero cold turkey is a great way to really crash yourself out. I must have slept for 3 straight days doing that. So, like any good drug taker, I'm going to slowly taper down the doseage to give my body time to adapt. If I decide to try to diet down the rest of the way after my two weeks hiatus, the time off the stack should help there as well. So, I did Friday: 3 doses of 20 mg ephedrine, 200 mg caffeine, 1 aspirin, cayenne Saturday: 2 doses of 20 mg ephdrine, 200 mg caffeine, 1 aspirin, cayenne Sunday: 1 dose of 20 mg ephedrine: 200 mg caffeine, 1 aspirin, cayenne Then off the compound totally. Sunday: Well, I felt a bit water retentive this morning (no, not anal retentive although that applies to me as well) so I decided to shorten the overall carb load. Had a small balanced breakfast (more Isometric than anything) and then went skating at a very easy pace for about 40 minutes. Had one last carb/protein meal (50 grams Ultra fuel with 1 scoop Designer) afterwards and that's the end of carbing. Started taking a herbal diuretic after that (got B-6, buchu extract, uva ursi and a whole host of other shit in it) and will continue to take two capsules every 2 or 3 hours. Going back to mostly fat and protein with small amounts of carbs so I'm not too flat (last time I tried to peak, I couldn't get a pump) and will likely have one decent sized starch meal tonight before bedtime. Hopefully I can get pics taken first thing in the morning and now I have to go shave the body down so I don't look like the hairy gorilla that I am. Well, despite the best of intentions, I continued to carb yesterday. I think psychologically, not reaching my goal (c'mon, I only gave myself 5 weeks to drop from 10% bodyfat to 5% which is pretty impossible without drugs) I continued to carb yesterday. Also, the ex., who had been out of town the last two weeks got back and wanted to go get some food. And, I couldn't really tell her (sorry, I'm not eating until tomorrow). So, my stomach is full of undigested food and I'm still holding a lot of water. Which pretty much means I will continued dieting down when I get back from my vacation in two weeks. Morning body temp is back up a bit (98 yesterday but 97.7 today) which hopefully means thyroid is coming back on line with the extra carbs. Will simply try to do damage control bodyweight/fat wise the next two weeks (the friends I'll be spending time with are health nuts like me so it will be difficult to really eat a lot of junk food anyhow) and go back onto Bodyopus when I get back. For the record, here's the body composition measurement as of this morning. Day Date Wt Pec Abs SI Thigh Sum3 BF% FM FFM -------------------------------------------------------------- Mon 9/9 154 3 21 12 5 29 8.5 13 141 Mon 9/16 160 3 22 12.5 6 31 8.5 13.6 146.4 So, not unsuprisingly (considering the sheer volume of food I ate this weekend) I got a bit of spillover (we're talking an entire jar of peanut butter and jelly, a loaf of bread, 6 bagels and grog knows what else) but I'm still the leanest I've ever been. To drop to 6% bodyfat when I get home will require a further fat loss of: 146.4/.94 = 155 so 5 lbs of fat loss assuming I don't gain much on my trip. With improved thyroid economy and some time off the ECA stack, this should be a snap with 3-4 weeks of further Bodyopus dieting. Note: for anyone who didn't catch it, I will be out of town (and most likely offline) from tomorrow (Tuesday Sep 17th to Mon Sep 30th) so, if emails, questions, and requests for back issues of the diaries are not responded to, that's why. I will answer every email I get but it may take some time. I might be able to get online briefly from California (don't know if I'll be able to telnet back to my home domain or not) but I'll have to really prioritize answering email. So, if there's a delay, I'm not blowing you off, I'm just on vacation. Also, in the disorganization which is my life, I didn't even get a change to cobble together even an ugly WWW page to archive these suckers. If somebody out there (Brian, Robert) has them all and wants to archive them *temporarily* on their site to make them available, please drop me an email to let me know where they are and you can assume that reuse permission has been granted. Assuming I *ever* get my shit together and get my own home page put together, I will request that you do not continue to archive them on your site but a link is fine. If it seems I'm being hardasses about this, well, I am. But, Duchaine has talked about publishing these long-winded things so I need to know where they are for copyright reasons. I hope everybody has a great next couple of weeks (probably be a lot quieter with me offline, eh). Lift hard, eat right, and do all that good shit and I'll catch y'all (or was that all y'all) in a bit. Lyle McDonald, CSCS P.S. I really can't believe that it's been 5 months that I've been doing these things. I really need to get a life, huh?